souldin wrote:

Ok so the /back has been a topic open on a report for some time. this has been talking about with the staff. there are no rules for /back with PVP per the staff. The rules on the website do not say anything about /back you are more then welcome to read the rules at http://piratemc.com/information/rules/ This topic has been on going for some time.

You’ll find that using /back to enter back into a fight or pick up your items after dying in a fight is punishable and against the rules, hence the ‘Use Common Sense’ rule.

souldin wrote:

You know i must say it now. I am getting tired of every day seeing people complain about all of this.. ooo i died its not fair some one help call staff. quit run to the forums. this is a game. THIS IS ALSO A PVP SERVER. i mean its every day now. this all needs to stop all your are doing is annoying some of the PVPers on this server witch in return is going to make us hunt you for fun. its a /back it is offered from donating to this server, yes people dont have it, and people do, the sad thing about this is no matter what people who post on this forum about this, im really sure have do the /back and using it in the way you are complaining about and they think its ok, until it happens to them. at this point its either complain about dieing, complain about /back, complain that you cant do anything because someone is all ways killing you. complain that at events crews are killing everyone. why cant everyone just play the game everyone will die in this game everyone will get sieged in this game. this happens to all players its the game. now im not trying to upset anyone with this post im just making a point this server cant go a day without someone complaining about something. lets all just play the game.

Once again, I’ll remind you that certain players believe themselves to be above the rules. Using /back for purposes other than a PVE death isn’t allowed, and has been/is punishable by the staff. People complain because it is a feature people constantly abuse. PVP is acceptable, and I like a fair fight. But people believe it’s their divine right to /back instantly after a PVP death, to start the fight anew. That’s not how minecraft is meant to be played.

There’s nothing wrong with playing on a PVP server, and deciding to partake in PVP. But using a mechanic to avoid the penalties of a fair death, or to effectively create a temporary sethome, is wrong. I get that you’re annoyed at the amount of flack CoV is taking at the moment, and much of it isn’t justified, but using /back to gain an unfair, immoral and unlawful advantage isn’t something we should support.

After all, Minecraft is played in such as way as you constantly set yourself goals and achieve them, be it streaks, builds, or the like. The feeling of accomplishment you get from winning a fair fight shouldn’t be taken away from you because someone decides to abuse a mechanic and get back into the fight, or use the mechanic in such a way as to create a temporary sethome; it ruins the value of the game for both parties.

This discussion has been on for months and years, and while there has not been any official answer to what is and what is not abuse, one we can agree on. /back is abusable, meaning it has the potential to be abused. I believe that incorporation of use of /back into written rules would solve this problem once and for all, avoiding both harassment by back abuse AND unfair complaints about legitimate /back use.

I feel like this is suddenly soon going to become a roasting thread xD

Which I look forward too.

souldin wrote:

Crazy Pirate, what you said. you”ll find that using /back to enter into a fight or pick up your items after dying in a sight is punishable and against the rules, hence the “use common sense rule” that is wrong that rule has nothing to do with /back as it is a donation option. You and everyone else need to stop making rules up on this server. you need to move on past this, this has been a post many many times and the same out come every time.

Enquire with the staff, and you’ll find out that using /back after a fight has finished and you have died, to return to the fight or retrieve items is punishable. Go on, I dare you.

30 or 50 cool down for /back in any circumstances? I mean, if you were to die from a PVE related death then your items would not of despawned by then. And in a PVP fight then 30 seconds would be enough time for the player you was fighting to tp away and for them to collect your items; so it would be utterly point less to /back.

That’s my suggestion, I just thought that could clear things up, I didn’t have much thinking on it so please correct me if I had missed something.

Ok so here I go. I like this thread and hope that the discussion of this will continue and we will either get clearly defined rules for the use of this feature or quite possibly we won’t and it will continue to be a case by case basis.
I agree that the use of /back to get your gear back or return to the fight should not be allowed. I don’t mean like what I did I mean after fighting and such. As for what I actually did which was TPing back to the area where someone had decided to tp away. Well I’m not sure if this should be disallowed or not. I am a very patient person, before I was a captain I stood outside a base invised for about 2 hours to get a kill and just moved my mouse every once in awhile. To me this just speeds up the process a bit and gets us both back on with playing the game elsewhere. Map watching and backing has been a huge part of our battles against Solis. If even one of either of our members say that aint true then they are on something. We have all seen it a lot that someone who’s armor is nearly dead will tp out once combat tagged. Then they will re pot and armor and jump back into the fight.

Ah, as I type all this I realize it is all going in a circle just explaining the same things that have already been explained so I’ll just say simply that I agree if anyone wants to be able to yell /back abuse then it needs to be written down somewhere. Not just oh I found this old ban for it so it is illegal all the time. I remember some of those warnings/bans. they were not instances of a sing /back to get into the fight or a single /back to trick the person into thinking they were safe. They were times where people like Benster were using /back several times a minute to get back to a person’s base and punch them and steal stuff and generally be an annoyance. Agreed /back “Abuse” has been punished in the past but the term “Abuse” needs to be defined better.

souldin wrote:

YOU ARE NOT A ADMIN, YOU ARE NOT THE GAME OWNER. 

Never said I was. I’m just repeating what staff have said countless times in the past, that /back was introduced for PVE, and shouldn’t be used in PVP, as it changes the nature of a fight.

Using it as Dan does, as a temporary ‘sethome’, is fair enough, and nothing has ever been said about it. But staff have repeatedly warned and banned people who use it after their death to rejoin a fight or recover gear.

I seriously have no clue as to why you cannot accept this, and why you are defending /back in PVP so vigorously, unless you have interests in it being permitted.

I have been meaning to reply to this thread, but haven’t had the time it would take to write the post, lets see if I can get my view across on /back, sorry @mcshovel reopening it!

Lets just start with the technical & background, /back is a command via the Essentails plugin,

“Returns you to your last position from a prior teleport.”

Back is actually split into 2 permissions, both are given to Captains; The first is the use of back, the second is being able to use back on death.

/back was introduced before we even had 1 donator, it was added out of the fury of being on a long trek, falling down a crevasse and loosing everything from your mining trip. It was initially added with not a thought about PVP, the server didn’t have more than 10 people to fight when it was added, and most people we’re interested in building than fighting, it was added as a perk to assist in building and moving around materials for the 10 people that played piratecraft at the time. /back was intended for the EXACT reason @PaulOnFire has stated in his initial post:

Today is a prime example. I’ve been working on server infrastructure during the past few days, such as a currently 2’000 block long road network in the north and a free fully automated wheat farm for deckies near spawn.

I have shyed away from giving a direct “rule” to back in the past, as it is difficult to police as a mod with all the ridiculous drama that goes with each report, we do not have the time or patience for drama. So since I have been pushed for a rule:

/back was never intended to be used for PVP, it shouldn’t be used in PVP, its completely unfair, and even worse off in a crew (That we didn’t have when back was added)

This didn’t have a separate rule, as this falls under Rule 1 & Rule 9, its obvious it should not be abused in PVP.
http://piratemc.com/information/rules/

As I have said many times, anyone that abuses back will have it permanently removed from them, its possible to remove back from offenders, but you need solid video proof, not just a text/screenshot post.

using @mcshovel list of “can I use back in this situation” I will give my best answer, the ISSUE is that once a written list is given, people will attempt to “fight” their abuse of /back by saying “Well it says on this list im allowed to do it”. This is exactly where there has never been a list of yes/no before.

1. /back is allowed to get your inventory back from a PVE (Player Vs Environment) situation, falling down a hole or a creeper taking you out, that is the point of /back, NOT to get your gear back from loosing a PVP fight.
2. /back is not allowed to re-equip and go back to fight
3. /back is not allowed to be used after a PvP death?
   1. Context is key, for examples after 5 mins, it could be used to see if any items were left from the fight, its not here to go back to antagonise or get revenge.
4. /back is not allowed to be used to get back into someone’s base?
   1. You would have been teleported into their base in the first place? Then the issue isn’t with back its with /tpahere
5. /back is not allowed to be used to return to a previous location for raiding
6. /back is not allowed to be used to ‘camp’ a location

To sum up /back was intended for PvE deaths, without PVP in mind.

Why hasn’t back been removed then?

1. its not back, its teleporting in general, if you remove back then you can still tpahere and sethome, these can both be used to replace back very easily, removing /back only will make other mechanics be abused, so its either remove ALL teleporting or keep it as it stands.
2. OK why not remove back just on death /back then? You didn’t read did you? Its purpose is for retrieving items lost on a PvE death, its a perk to save your inventory and XP, unless you jumped in lava like a pleb.
3. A lot of people donate just for the use of /back its extremely handy for many situations apart from PVP
4. It is just the PVPers that abuse back, those mostly in crews, maybe crews need blocked commands?

How do we fix this?

1. I came up with an idea; A second PVP timer, but one for disabled commands;
   So you have the first one that tags you in pvp for 15 seconds, this disables the use of commands, but this isnt long enough. I cant increase the PVP timer much, but what would be fantastic is if we had a SECOND timer, that lasted for 2-5 mins that allowed me to block specific commands, in this case /back, “you cant use back since you have been tagged in PVP in the last 2-5mins“. Even if you die.
   This needs to be implemented by our PVP manager developer, how do you like this idea?
2. Block the use of /back if you are in a crew, since these are the people that are abusing it.
3. warnings need to be given out by staff at every single report of back abuse, these add up and will result in action.

/back is one of these legacy features that I wish I never added, like player owned warps, we managed to phase those out, maybe we can find an alternative to /back.

@PaulOnFire me and you are both on the same page about all of this, I have written before what you have have here, just nobody listened!

PaulOnFire wrote:

I don’t want to spill fuel on the fire, but it really grinds my gears when people don’t read posts properly. I am in NO WAY complaining about PvP in general. In the past I have even ADVOCATED NOT having PvP-free areas. Heck, I’ve even defended warp killers before. PirateCraft needs PvP, but it also needs to promote co-existence so everyone can enjoy the game. PvPers and non-PvPers alike are both guilty of being inconsiderate spam fritters more often than not. -o- Many PvPers constantly belittle anyone who stands up against rotten behaviour and dismiss serious issues as whining “because it’s a PvP server, lulz.” This lazy attitude stinks to high heaven and needs to be addressed pronto. -o- Many non-PvPers think that because they don’t like PvPing they have the right not to be raided or injured in any shape or form. Any form of conflict instantly becomes a harassment case of diva-like proportions. Well, PvPers come to this server to be pirates, and pirates need fodder. If you want to be untouchable, work to become untouchable! Sooooo, hurrah for drama. I guess I’ve managed to let off some steam now… No offence intended towards anyone in particular. I’d appreciate some constructive thoughts and opinions on how to address the topic at hand.

Im with you 100%, it drives me insane, I know that now ive put in 45 mins to write this post and I know I will get a moronic 1 sentence reply from someone that hasn’t read this properly, I know this as I have written this in detail before! Paul im with you, were on the same wavelength. Theres all this fuss with “PVP” and people still do not understand that minecraft is so extremely buggy, PVP isn’t going to be good, its that simple, the game itself still feels like its in alpha, it was never created properly from the ground up, and it was created by novices. PVP in general will always suck one way or another, people do not understand its a flawed mechanic of minecraft that once you get to a point where you have everything you are invincible, and add in a way to store your items so that they cant be touched, means you can never be touched.

I feel like I should pin that general PVP rant Paul, because ive been saying it since day one, you cant have the best of both worlds, what we have here is actually quite balanced, people are just blind to their bias way of playing. I can see this as I don’t play either role.